Nagorno Karabakh- a proof that parallel worlds exist.
In the car journey yesterday, I was asked to explain to two teenagers why Armenia and Azerbaijan were “bombing each other”.
I explained. But surely, one of them suggested, they just need to stop bombing each other and just go sit down with a coffee and discuss the issue?
Funny how kids think, isn’t it.
Well, I said…if only.
The more comments and coverages by some incredibly biased media I see online, the more I am realizing that this conflict is not going to end that soon. I have to say, if it weren’t for the people dying on both sides, I would find the whole thing quite amusing. Because, both countries, incredibly so, have their own reality. Those two realities are like two parallel worlds in some fantasy novel, where someone lives right next to you but impossible to see or hear from your side.
The accusations coming from each side about the other are practically identical, as if two toddlers fighting with the only few bad words they know. You are a terrorist! No, you are!
Both Azeri president and Armenian PM, according to the other side, wanted this war to distract from their country’s economic crisis. Both sides claim they didn’t kill, didn’t bomb, didn’t violate yet another ceasefire. Both sides claim they didn’t start this war. Both claim the land is their home. Both claim the other side are “terrorists”, delusional and brainwashed by the above-mentioned government. Both claim they have control of the same regions and villages. Both sides make up some crazy stories about horrific murder scenes some cousin had personally witnessed.
Having watched by far the worst, most hideously biased coverage of this situation I have ever come across, by Armenian Ana Kasparian, for The Young Turks, I felt furious at first.
But then, a thought occurred to me. How is it possible, I thought, that someone could have such strong belief in their “facts”? Without at least some sort of a reason behind it? So I decided to try and understand the other side a little more.
And you know what, it isn’t that easily done. That’s why majority of comments on both sides are so stupid. Because people do not want facts. They are just following their reality.
So I tried to investigate the main questions I was curious about.
1. How come Armenians believe in #Artsakh? Why do they think it is their land?
Now, having read carefully through as many unbiased documents online as possible, I realized something that I suspected all along. They feel it is theirs because Armenians actually lived there for a while. That fact seems to be true. Back in 15thcentury there were Armenian Melikdoms that ruled the area- for some time. But the reality is, the area was never really owned by anyone for too long without being taken over- again and again, either by Ottoman or Persian or the Russian empires.
“Nagorno-Karabakh was long contested by the Ottoman, Persian, and Russian Empires as part of the Caucasus Mountains”. (https://geohistory.today/nagorno-karabakh/)
I guess it depends on how far back we want to go. In ancient times Karabakh was populated by Caucasian tribesmen who spoke a Lezgic language. Does that mean the land belongs to Lezgi people?
My "bestie" Ana claimed in her reportage on the conflict zone, that the land was STOLEN from Armenians by Stalin and given to Azerbaijan. Well, it seems, if we go back, and like really far back, it was stolen and given to melikdoms by Persian prince at some point, only to be then “stolen” again, by Ottoman empire.
In 1823 it was liquidated into the larger Russian Karabakh Province. Tax surveys performed by the Russians revealed that while Azerbaijanis were a majority in Karabakh—almost two-thirds in 1845—the mountainous districts were populated almost exclusively by Armenian villages. However, they did not recognize that the majority of Karabakh’s Azerbaijanis lived a nomadic lifestyle and spent their summers in the highlands of Nagorno-Karabakh. The Azerbaijani herdsmen’s claim to the lands of Nagorno-Karabakh is thus not reflected in these surveys, which were typically conducted during winter. https://geohistory.today/nagorno-karabakh/
See what was going on there?
I think this is enough of history. To summarize, the land was always ruled and taken over by someone and given to someone else. Isn’t it the case usually, everywhere in the world? So what is the final word on who lived there for generations? In my humble opinion looks like both Armenians and Azeris did. And fought for the ruling of the land for what looks like, in British technical terms, donkeys’ years.
Now, all that history seems to be irrelevant however, as legally, and I am sorry it doesn’t matter why and when and who decided to “give it “ to Azerbaijan- Just because Stalin was an unpleasant dude doesn’t change the fact that the land is well, don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but is ours. Sorry, Armenia, but I, in my brainwashed state, simply cannot see how it is yours.
2. Why are Armenians going on and on about the evil Turks and the genocide, and why are they constantly claiming there is a danger of ethnic cleansing in Nagorno Karabakh, if not Armenia too?
Now, this one is interesting.
The other night, at a small dinner party, my husband brought up something about cultural identity and this strong feeling of belonging some nations seem to have. We were having dinner with Irish neighbors, and one of them explained her need to feel Irish. Husband, who never felt any need to feel British, suggested that perhaps it is the fact that as a Brit, he was never raised with the history of injustice towards British people. Never was taught that people could be awful to him just because he is British, and how every Brit needs this national identity to perhaps, survive all together as a nation.
I thought husband had a good point. British people never had a particular reason to worry about being humiliated, abused, stolen from or murdered just because of their nationality.
I have a Jewish friend however, who will bring up the Holocaust at any given opportunity.
Now, Armenians remind me of the Jews in the way that they have a long history of being killed or chased away or otherwise hated and mistreated. Mostly and most famously by the Ottomans.
So, their fear of the Turks is primal, irreversible, and unshakable. And I guess, kind of understandable.
So, when I see some of the crazier nationalistic ones spreading legends of Azeri’s having burned Armenians alive and eaten some babushkas in Baku; and read claims that Azeris will most probably eat their babies because Turkish generals tell us to do so…. I guess I cannot simply laugh it off, however ridiculous that may sound. This is an unconditional fear, first thing every Armenian probably learns before they even learn to walk or talk, based on their history as a nation. This fear and hatred of the Turks is a huge chunk of their national identity. And this fear is, I believe what drives people like Ana Kasparian to shout from her safe and comfortable apartment in LA about dangers of ethnic cleansing in Nagorno-Karabakh. She is prepared to risk her reputation as a journalist to protect her tribe, at whatever cost.
Finally, my last question or rather something that amuses me endlessly these days is
3. Why, how is it even possible that there could be two versions of the same event and no way to simply know the truth?
For example.
“Ha-ha! Armenians say. “Aliev keeps lying to his people that they took control of Fizuli! How many times did they take control of Fizuli? We lost count! Ha-ha!”
But Azerbaijan did take control of Fizuli. How can that be so difficult to prove to be true?
And the Syrian mercenaries? Is that true? Or not? How do we know for sure when there is absolutely zero concrete evidence? Their bodies, according to Armenian officials, may have been eaten by wild boar, so impossible to present as evidence.
You will say but Scary, but this is normal. This is what everyone does. Biased media is normal. Crazy stupid people with access to the internet (and ability to breed which is even more disturbing) are normal…conspiracy theories are normal…and different “facts” are normal, depending on your “side”.
Yet…I cannot comprehend how, in our days, when allegedly we are all being spied on by the governments; and Bill Gates knows exactly how many times we shat today, and what porn turns us on….how come in this amazing modern technological world we cannot prove -even to the most stupid ones, even the most nationalistic moronic ones… that children did get murdered? Cities did get bombed? Thousands of soldiers, only marginally older than some of our own children… are probably dead? Is their national pride or whatever you want to call it so blindingly all-consuming that they refuse to accept that it is maybe possible that their side did indeed commit some pretty gruesome shit?
Finally...
Those Twitter images of Armenian press secretary claiming to blow up their own tanks to show us what they are capable of are probably fake.
The stories of Azeris hiring jihadists and then not paying them which led to the annoyed jihadists sending missiles to Ganja are also probably fake.
Finally, the fact that Turkey likes us and supports us…well, we are not sorry about that. Armenians have the US, France, Canada, Russia…(They do have Russia, right? Hard to tell at the moment) They can play the Christian religion card and get sympathy based on that fact alone. We only have Turkey. FFS, let us have at least one country who supports us! Oh, and Hungary for some random reason. Cheers, Hungary!
So what is going to happen then? Will there ever be peace? How can Armenians ever live in Nagorno Karabakh next to Azeris? Without getting ethnically cleansed? Well, do you know how many Armenians live in Turkey right now? Around 70,000, according to Google. Despite the Turkey-phobia.
So yes, maybe it will be possible. They will have to learn to co-exist at some point.
But in the meantime…sadly, there wont be many coffees had between Armenians and and Azeries. Because the stupidity of some people who continue to share fake stories and hatred online, the aggressive biased reporting by the likes of Ana Kasparian and the refusal to accept anything the other side says as possible truth…all that just takes us nowhere.
Wow! So far my favaorite piece on the topic. I am also stunned by the similarities in the claims, accusations and propaganda of both sides. While it gave me a deeper insight into the Armenian perspective and made me realize they have reasons (based solely on their own beliefs, not real facts) for acting the way they do. I am once again assured of our rightful position. Thanks!
ReplyDeletePlease tell me what is not a fact. Are you a genocide denier. Do you deny what you did in sugamit and baku. let me guess it is all made up by the armenians .... I find it very depressing that this is the progressive azeri view. without the hatred of Armenians what else have you. You dont have a culture a history you have nothing. Just a corrupt dictatorship.
DeleteThere is a scientific background to the points you raise about in-built and perhaps irrational fear are contained in a book called 'Behave' by Robert Sapolsky. He is an endocrinologist and Stanford professor. The book unwraps the biological complexities of the brain and provides revealing insights into exactly what biological mechanisms are at work in human behaviours.
ReplyDeleteI'm so sorry for what's going on between Armenia and Azerbaijan. I'll never understand these sad and bad aspects of human nature.
ReplyDeleteThis is a good start… regarding the “its ours” part, the “gifted by Stalin” argument is weak. For a legal argument, please read article 3 of the 1990 USSR constitution, ignore the twitter noise, and form your own opinion:
ReplyDeletehttp://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/shevarnadze-resigns/shevarnadze-resigns-texts/law-on-secession-from-the-ussr/
The distinction between the mountainous region and and the rest of Karabagh is lost in the Twitterverse. The Madrid Principles, in my opinion, are consistent with the USSR constitution and the referendums/demographics at the time.
Oh, and the beheadings are reinforcing the Turkic stereotype of barbaric conquerors from Central Asia, that needs to stop. Similar in terms of its grotesqueness, inhumanness and insensitivity to what happened in 1915 (innocent civilians are dying on both sides, but this is another level).
Finally, due to 100+ years of genocide denial driven by the Turkish government, slow progression (but progression nevertheless) of worldwide recognition (most recently the US in 2019), the Armenian nation is where the Jews were in the 1950s. There is a long way to go, and we’ll be lucky if it happens in our lifetime.
Imagine if you will, being one of the oldest nations in the world, with the language, ruins and historical text to prove it. Now imagine being subjugated over and over. Each time, having your land chipped away. Each time, becoming a second-class citizen in your own (now former) land.
ReplyDeleteThen watching nomadic (Turkic) tribes from Central Asia with comparatively little culture or history come in and continue that process. Misappropriate your culture as their own. Destroy traces of the past, convert your orthodox churches to Mosques, destroy ancient Armenian Khachkars.
This is the prevailing theme of the Armenian nation. And it’s not baseless.
Imagine for a second that all of Karabagh is yours. You are sipping coffee next to Gandzasar, an ancient site of Armenian worship, with little to nothing of antiquity that is Turkish or Azeri even remotely close.
Would you not feel like maybe this is not your homeland, that you don't belong? (read: homeland, not *home*, I know Azeris were displaced in the 90s).
How do Turks (not Azeris) feel, when they walk around the Hagia Sophia and the great structure of ancient Constantinople? For us, we would feel like we’re in someone else’s homeland, enjoying the fruits of another’s culture, with comparatively little of their own, and the only merit being successful conquest?
There has to be a two-state solution.
wow, wow, wow. people have really lost their mind. you claim to know that the story about Syrians is false, yet criticizing this sort of "knowing" is exactly what your post is about. every country, the US, France, Russia, independent journalists all have confirmed this number of times. it is incredibly funny how fake your desire to be neutral is. their fear of Turks is kind of understandable? "kind of", what kind of understanding is it? have you heard about the concept of insulting the Turkish nation, and that Turkey has been using this to prosecute anyone who speaks about the killings of Armenias? have you heard about the assassination of Hrant Dink? do you know about Grey Wolves? i am mean what do you know, and finally who the hell are you to allow yourself to write such a primitive piece. how about spending one paragraph on pogroms in Baku, or Operation Ring, or OMON? or the destruction of the Armenian graves in Julfa, or what Aliyev says about Armenias every day. yeah, you write anyone can write something these days, including yourself.
ReplyDeleteactually, here is a pretty good suggestion for you before you write stuff that is beyond yourself. how about you go live among Armenians as an Azeri to set an example for all those Armenians that it is possible that Armenians and Azeris can live in peace. if you claim that, you do it first.
ReplyDeleteWaiting for an update on the topic after the recent news. You must be thrilled with joy!
ReplyDeleteNagorno Karabakh belongs to Azerbaijan simply because Armenia lost the war. That's it. That simple.
ReplyDeleteI'm from Romania, an watching some years ago news on TV about the war in Nagorno-Karabakh I didn't really understand why suddenly this region of the world is at war.
ReplyDeleteI didn't take time to research and understand also because people go to war (more exactly start wars) because they are stupid.
I consider that oppressed people/populations may have the right to "start" a war but I guess the oppressors can be considered as those starting a war.
In the history books your region is pretty insignificant in a historical dimension, at least in my view, as someone who doesn't know much about the history of this region, around the Caucasus mountains.
Not even the Chinese empire was important in the games of the big (western) empires and later imperial powers because it was a weaker military power and its influence was strong only in Asia.
The countries near the Caucasus mountains remind me a little of the Romanian history, but there are obvious huge differences too.
The Romanian territories were not that important in the global politics, even though their populations, the Danube river and the Carpathian mountains were like a buffer against the Ottoman expansion.
The Romanians were generally peaceful with their neighbors although there was a strained relation with Hungary/Austro-Hungary that conquered (and held on for hundreds of years to) Transylvania , where most of the people spoke Romanian, according to different censuses.
And Romanians had some encounters with the Russian Empire, USSR and their ruling authorities, and the communism that has brought out the worst in many people of the local populations, in every country where it took hold, not unlike the worst aspects of capitalism.
It's always important not to forget the distinction between the rulers of a country's governance; supported by many clerks and government workers that belong to the general population, too, and the rest of the population.
Often the ruling authorities have visions for a country and its people that are against the well being of the population.
In wars the innocent civilians are always losers. The authorities that start wars don't care about them. And the soldiers that start the war are mostly too stupid and indoctrinated, and part of the populations is brainwashed and filled with contempt for their neighbors, sometimes only because of stories from history books and violent events from the sometimes distant past.
If neighboring countries have rulers and populations that are sane, it doesn't matter if they have huge minorities on their territories; they can still respect them and give them freedom to do what they want, without needing to break away in smaller independent territories or join other neighboring countries, at least until everybody involved can agree on that.
ReplyDeleteIf 2 neighboring countries can get along, then, the mutual acceptance of different cultures, the ease of the cultural and economical exchanges will offset the need for a separation from other populations of a country.
The great value of the European Union is that it allows different countries and especially neighbors to interact more with each other with minimal borders, and better understand each other. It makes countries try to come together to work for compromises in order to solve their common problems. It's not perfect and big economies in the EU and big lobbyists try to impose their views and profit from their smaller "partners", the smaller countries can stand the oppression of bigger political and economical, if they have the backbone.
Becoming an independent territory or breaking away from one country in order to join another, usually will not make the lives of the people in that region better in a short amount a time.
Seeing a war between Azerbaijan and Armenia, which I believed would be in a pretty stable an conflict free region (I don't include the Russia Georgia conflicts), seems pretty insane to me.
It kind of the same with Israel and Palestine (Palestinian territories), where the population of Israel has been brainwashed by their leaders into dis-considering the Palestinians. The Israeli authorities oppressed the Palestinians, the Palestinians then violently attacked Israeli populations, the Israeli attacked Palestinians, then they started hating each other even more.
And probably the forces governing the Palestinian territories based on military power were and are corrupt and don't care about the best interest of the Palestinians.
Both countries/territories, spearheaded by their leaders and most importantly their armies , have done despicable things, and the Israeli authorities still want to occupy more from the Palestinian territories.
These 2 populations have lived for a lot of time in peace during the Ottoman Empire.
But with the creation of Israel and the coming to power in Israel's politic, of leaders with extremists views and no care for the well being of other people the stupidity and the hatred morphed into a war.
A lot of the populations of Israel and Palestinian territories probably hate/dislike each other even though their leaders are mostly responsible for the conflict and the majority of both populations just try to live their lives and take care of their daily tasks. A lot of people probably have been brain washed by their leaders into hating other populations, even though the populations should hate their insane leaders.
And the global powers like USA, (USSR, China) have usually made things worse for the people living in smaller countries, trying to control everything and grab the best of everything.
ReplyDeleteSeeing them fight and how Israeli authorities try to oppress the Palestinians, seeing wars between Armenia and Azerbaijan, how Turkish authorities oppress the Kurdish population, seems like a large number of people from these territories, have gone insane.
Not to mention the different wars between African populations, where people are poor, without proper education, with natural resources and weapons, and where there are a lot of ethnic groups and a lot of greedy, violent people, seeking money and power to hold on to the wealth.
If you don't have resources that they need, the governments of the world powers don't care about the people in smaller countries with weaker armies. Some people of those world powers may care, but hey can't solve your problems and they have their own problems to take care of.
If people don't solve your problems peacefully, then they can destroy each other's lives like idiots, misled by leaders that don't even fight in wars.